Hello, everyone. Today, I have a friend from United States that I met last year when we started hypnotherapy together. And her name is Tricia, or in Australian, Tracia. And she is becoming an expert in relation to the recovering from a narcissistic slash toxic relationship. So what we're going to discuss today is knowing what those signs are of a narcissist slash toxic relationship, how you can heal from that type of relationship, and then to make sure that you don't go into your next relationship along the same lines as your prior relationship. So we'll start off with Trisha. Do you want to introduce yourself? Hi, yes, I am Trisha Chandler. And I'm a rapid transformational therapist, hypnotherapist and trauma and abuse recovery coach. And I live in Detroit, which is kind of in the middle of the United States. And that's what I do. So let's get started. So whether you want to use the textbook definition or not, what would you describe like what is a narcissist slash toxic person? Well, I mean, I guess I'd first like to say that a lot of times victims get so hung up on that diagnosis and they feel like is is this person, are they or are they not? And that's how they utilize those decision making. for whether they're going to stay or go in a relationship. And ultimately it doesn't matter if somebody is diagnosed, they're not diagnosed. Are they a narcissist? Are they just an asshole? Like what, you know, the only thing that really truly matters is how does this person make you feel in the relationship? And that's really important. A key distinction because what the other person is or isn't ultimately is not important. It only matters how you're being treated, how you're being made to feel. And if you feel that you're not being, your needs are not being met, or you're being made to feel like you're less worthy or whatever the case may be, then it's not a healthy relationship. And that's really where a victim of any of this should focus. But as far as, you know, helping somebody to identify, and it's important to also say that this is a diagnosable clinical psychological condition. And it does exist on a spectrum. So somebody could be narcissistic in their behaviors, having traits, or all the way up to the far end of the spectrum, which would be a malignant psychopathic narcissist. And it exists all along this spectrum. And just because somebody is narcissistic doesn't mean they have a diagnosable mental health condition. Yeah. But again, exactly. So, you know, again, it really doesn't matter what they are. That's their problem. You know, as the victim or on the receiving end, your problem is to take care of yourself. You know, and it's not it's not as the victim is not your job to fix somebody else or to take care of their problem. Your problem is to take care of yourself and to recognize that you're not having your needs met and you're not being treated right. So to, to let go of, are they, aren't they, you know, that's, it's irrelevant, um, in a lot, in the broader scope of things. So I really work on helping my clients let go of, well, I don't know, are they diagnosed? Are they, aren't they? And we focus on just, let's just put that aside. Um, but the traits are often something along the lines of an, um, a sense of entitlement, um, They maybe exaggerate a lot of things. They feel that only certain people are worthy of their attention, higher institutions or a certain caliber of people. There is just a really tremendous sense of entitlement for treating other people poorly. And all of these toxic behaviors around these ideas and it resides completely in their head. You know, it's it's a delusional condition. where they truly believe the nonsense that they say, they gaslight, they manipulate, they project. If you want to know what a toxic person is up to, listen to what they accuse you of doing, because that's exactly what they are doing. You know, you, you think you're being accused of cheating and you go, I absolutely am not. Well, clearly they are because that's where their mind goes, their thought process. So there's a certain number of diagnostic things that a clinician would use to label somebody as this to diagnose them. Yeah. And I guess so even if they were to be diagnosed, I think the word narcissist has I don't know the word popular, but you can find it everywhere, I suppose, for the past few years. And as you said, like whether they're narcissists, whether they're toxic, whether they're just an ass, at the end of the day, it comes down to how you're feeling. But I would even think that somebody who is like diagnosed officially through like a psychiatrist or something as a narcissist or on some sort of spectrum of it, they're not going to listen to that anyway. And they're probably going to think that, no, I'm fine. You're the problem. Yeah, because they don't have the ability to self-reflect and they're completely not self-aware. Granted, some of them have some ability to do that, but where they have rudimentary empathy, where they understand what empathy is, they just don't feel it. So, you know, it's again, it's that spectrum, right? And there are also different types of narcissists. You know, there's covert, there's overt, there's malignants, there's... there's so many sorts, you know, and it can exist in many relationships. It can be a friend, it could be a coworker, it could be a boss, a priest, you know, a business acquaintance, or it could be familial, your sister, brother, mother, father. And then there's the romantic connections too. So it exists in a lot of different types of relationships. Yeah, and would you say that they often play the victim? So say a relationship, we're going to talk about more of relationships in a moment, but would they play the victim in that, even though they cause a problem, but they perceive that they didn't cause the problem? Oh, yeah, the covert types are notorious for that. They love to be the victim because it gets them attention, right? Yeah. And it's, you know, maybe it's a situation that they've created or stirred up. And then somehow it gets flipped back around. And they're the sad sack that needs the attention, you know, or they're like, my ex husband loves to tell people what a horrible person I am. But you know, The people he tells aren't worthwhile probably knowing about anyway, or he tells the wrong people and it gets back to you anyway. So. That's it. I know. Like I, I, I found out that he was living in a really rough neighborhood and I thought, and then somebody that acquaintance I knew said, oh yeah, he's telling people that you took all the money from him and he has to live there. And I just laughed. Like that's not a, the way it works and B it's not even remotely true. I'm the one financially that's, you know, On a precarious situation because of the crap he did. So, you know, this is how they do. So he likes to pretend that he's hurting and he went so far as to choose to live in a bad neighborhood so that he can prove his point of what a sad person he is, that his mean ex-wife took all of his money. And how does that make you feel when you hear that? Like I can imagine for some people if they're so caught in that, so maybe they've had the opportunity to leave and then they hear something like that and it's a whole sob story, then you start to feel guilty. It's like, oh, okay, it's not them, it's my fault. And then like you may get back to that relationship because you've got that guilt on you. How do you cope with somebody telling you that? Well, generally for me I'm pretty healed in that regard and I just roll my eyes at it and laugh. that, you know, that's not the case for most victims, you know, especially if you're first coming out of a relationship, because the instinct is then to go, no, no, no, that's not true. That's not true. And then they're so worried about what other people think of them. You know, and ultimately, it's a really lonely thing to heal from, because you start seeing all the other toxic people in your life, or maybe they're fine, but they're supporting the abuser. And you start cutting a lot of people out of your life, then you're surrounded by people that take the abuser's side. That's really hurtful. And so the inclination is to, you know, be out there going, oh, it's not true. It's not true. It's not me. I didn't do it. You know, but ultimately it doesn't matter what other people think of you. And if they do think those things, they're not your people. Yeah. They're not your crowd. They're not your people. And ultimately, why do you care what they think of you if they're not your people? Right. Yeah. I suppose that would definitely show you, you know, people kind of pick sides in like a separation. So I suppose that would definitely make you realise who your true friends are or your family members even in that type of relationship. And as you said, if they, you know, well, to me, I'm always three sides to each story. Typical lawyer, there's not two, there's three, kind of the other side, the other side. And, you know, there's truth in the middle. And then the truth is somewhere in the middle, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, so you mentioned that you are pretty well healed from your relationship and I probably knew you towards really the start of all of that happening. How did you kind of... or even, you know, with stories from your clients, how do you recommend that you start to heal? So you've finally got the courage, you've had that conversation, you've left, you're in a safe place, you've made sure kids are safe or whatever those circumstances may be. Right. This is obviously what you do so people can engage you for that. But what's a quick rundown as to how you can heal from that relationship and not have that guilt put back upon you when they do start to say, oh, I live in a caravan because she took all my money or he took all my money or whatever it might be. Yeah, and it's a tough place to be. It really is. And I'm always surprised how many people don't do anything. They truly believe, which is actually a topic of my upcoming TED Talk, is that time does not heal these wounds. In fact, if you allow things to just go and you think time's going to make you feel better, they actually deepen those trauma wounds. And it does take proactive effort to heal this stuff. And you've got to figure out And this is where rapid transformational therapy comes in. You know, it's a beautiful tool because it enables you to understand your own personal why. And this is true of anything, whether it be, you know, maybe you're just trying to figure out why you can't lose weight or stop smoking or why you're so anxious or whatever the thing is. So it, it allows you to understand your own personal why and figure out, okay, so why was I in this abusive relationship? Why didn't I see it sooner? Why did I allow somebody to treat me this way? Why did I stay for so long? And I'm not saying this in a, in a victim blaming way. It's the victim themselves. And I hate that word victim. It's like, it's, it's, the person themselves really trying to understand for themselves, like, why did I allow this? And once you really see it and you understand where it comes from and what drew you to this toxic relationship, because it isn't just that they are attracted to you for some reason, but you are attracted to them. And, you know, especially if you're a codependent or a lot of people like the term empath, um, which is really a fancy way of saying you have some serious childhood trauma someplace. There's a childhood wound there. So you're attracted to that. And there's something in that relationship that feels familiar. And, you know, and that's what draws you into it and why you have this compulsion to somehow fix a person that can't be fixed or allow them to treat you this way over and over and over again. And then when, And I work mostly with women and now Stacey, you said you work a lot. You see a lot of men in this category in Australia. But typically what I see is then women don't do anything to heal. They leave the relationship and they do one of two things. They either jump into a new relationship right away, trying to, you know, feel better, put a bandaid on the wound. And so they jump right into another relationship while they haven't fixed anything. And so they're immediately attracted to another toxic partner. And then this repeats. or they don't do anything to fix it. They wait a long period of time and they think I feel better now. And then they jump into a new role. Same thing happens over and over and over again. So it does take internal work. And so rapid transformational therapy really allows you to understand what drives this cycle. And because we are actually subconsciously reprogramming those triggers and the things that you're attracted to, it changes your reaction. Much like when we're working on smoking cessation, as an example, we're separating a thought and a behavior from an action in the same way it's an addiction with these toxic people. You know, your mind seeks what's familiar. So you are drawn to this. There's a familiar pattern. And then through subconscious reprogramming, we can separate those attractions and triggers and behaviors and beliefs and then also then rebuild that person's ability to love and cherish and really feel value in the months their own self to build up that self-love and if you truly love yourself you would never allow somebody to treat you that way yeah and it's a matter of um forgiving yourself as well like don't be so hard yourself if you know you didn't maybe a little bit far, a little bit longer, sorry. You know, it's obviously difficult if you add a layer of like kids involved in that. It does get dirty, yeah. Yeah, like forgive yourself. Like, yep, okay, I've learnt from that. I'm sure maybe that person was okay and maybe those traits happened further down the relationship. You know, you've got beautiful kids out of it, whatever it is. So I'm sure there'll be hopefully some sort of positive that you can pull out of it. But definitely... Don't be hard on yourself. Congratulations for acknowledging it and taking that next step. Absolutely. And an awful lot of people, when they come out of these toxic relationships, they feel that they need closure, which you do. And so they reach out to their ex trying to get closure and to get some sort of explanation or apology or something. And ultimately, that's the last thing you want to do if you're with a toxic person. you go no contact, that's step one. And that's like all the way across the board, no contact. And you're never going to get closure from that person. The closure comes from you. You have to give yourself, you know. And then I think, I don't know, people seem to get really messed up with the whole Christian tilt on this thing, like the idea of forgiveness. And I think some of that belief is to forgive is divine and all of that stuff. And ultimately you don't need to forgive somebody that treated you so horribly and they're not sorry for what they did. So why would you forgive them? The forgiveness is for yourself. You forgive yourself for staying. You forgive yourself for not understanding. You forgive yourself for allowing whatever it is, forgive yourself. And then you give yourself closure by really, truly learning to love yourself and embrace your worth as a person and then developing healthy boundaries. You know, in my case, I didn't have any boundaries and I had no idea even what that meant because as a child, I was never allowed to have any boundaries. I would have been punished for boundaries. Yeah. And is it there? So we've kind of touched on a little bit before. So maybe there are some people that kind of like toxic, narcissist, whatever, like from the start. Can it be that it develops over time? So maybe when you first were with somebody, those signs happened weren't really as strong as what they obviously become educated in it. But is that a behavior that can sometimes come over time towards, you know, a relationship or something? I mean, it begins to develop in early childhood, but it doesn't typically manifest until the late teens or even as late as the late twenties. And you'll begin to see traits of it. You know, I can I can tell you in many relationships, And I'm talking about a romantic relationship. Maybe they're, you know, they get married, everything seems okay. And then children come into the picture and that triggers something because often the narcissistic partner is jealous of their own children. Getting the attention that they maybe once got. Yes. Yes. You know, so maybe, you know, when it was just the two of them, you know, then the other partner is the focus of attention. in that relationship. And now children come along and attention gets divided. And obviously the kids get more attention than the spouse because they're kids. Right. And you know, in my case, I remember, being puzzled by why my ex was so bizarrely jealous when my kids would have a birthday party or anything like that. I was like, that's so weird. And I, you know, I didn't know what it was, but over time it got worse and worse and worse. And I see that with clients as well, you know, so it's not just my experience, but I see it with clients. It develops over time. And as your situation evolves and changes, things can change and shift. And it just, it does. And, you know, if you think about that in terms of brain development, you know, a human being's frontal cortex doesn't even fully develop until they're in their mid twenties. So naturally that coincides because this is a brain development disorder. So that's obviously going to manifest more heavily once the brain is fully developed. Yeah, wow. And we touched on that a little bit before as well. So how not to bring it into your next relationship. So you touched on essentially you need to forgive yourself. You know, as I said, I'm sure there was probably some good times in there if you've got kids and whatever out of the relationship. But to make sure you don't bring it into your next relationship, I guess from your perspective, it's you need to work on yourself first so you can understand yourself maybe what those signs are or even if there's a slight chance of it happening or, you know, being strong enough to be able to recognise it and then leave that relationship perhaps early and not hang on. So do you have any other tips in relationship not bringing you into that? You know, because it's familiar, right? So you go back to something that's familiar and it happens with, you know, it can happen with domestic violence as well. It's like they go into a next one because it's familiar and, you know, this is probably... There's a familiar pattern in the relationship. Yeah. you feel somehow oh yeah you know this didn't kill me before it must be okay and it's not a conscious you know thought you don't go oh yeah he seems like an abusive asshole like my ex I'm gonna go with this guy um it's it's a subconscious thing so you've got to heal that enough so that you're not attracted to it and yeah you know I'll tell you that when you get to a certain level of healed those people won't even come near you because, you know, they're looking for a certain thing. They're allowing, they're looking for someone that's going to allow them to have wide berth to do whatever they want. And they're going to start subtly manipulating and lying and testing to see if you'll put up with it, you know? So once you're able to really recognize those behaviors and you can go, wait a minute, you know, and you would start going, It doesn't make sense to me. You know, when you start questioning it, that person's just going to leave. They're not going to stick around because you're not allowing it. You're not allowing it or you're catching on essentially, you know, and I think you've got to be healed enough so that you're not so worried that you'll be all alone forever or whatever sad story you tell yourself that you will allow somebody to cross your boundaries or mistreat you in some way. And if you get healed enough, you're more concerned about being in an abusive situation than you are being alone. And you've got to get real comfortable with being all by yourself. And until the such time that you're comfortable, you know, and you could say relationship, I could take it or leave it. You know, if somebody's coming into my life, they're going to bring a ton of value to my life. Otherwise I don't, I don't have time for this. Right. And until you get to that point, you're likely to allow somebody to mistreat you. Yeah. So a lot of internal work. It is. It's a lot of internal work and just really recognizing, you know, what your boundaries should be, what they should have been all along. And some of it is just really going through the minutia of that last relationship and then examining not just the things that the person did to you, but then also examining your reactions to the things. and kind of understanding how that all played out yeah um so we're heading towards the end of today's show I was going to ask a question and I just completely forgot what it was um but um you know if people want to work with you we will put your links um in the notes uh as well but is there anything that you want to uh mention before we sign off today I just think it's really important that if somebody is mistreating you, that you know that you're not alone. There is help. And you do need to actively engage in some sort of healing regimen. Talk therapy probably is not the thing because this is an issue that resides in the subconscious mind. And it's really important to get help from somebody that actually has training in this area. So they need to understand trauma. They need to understand narcissistic abuse from the victim's point of view. And an awful lot of therapists don't have that because you know, they can't even recognize an active narcissist if they sat in their chair oftentimes because narcissists don't go in for therapy. Now it's important that you work with somebody who actually has training in the area. Yeah. And just to work on it. Life is so great on the other side. You're not alone. And that's really one of my message. Yeah, that's wonderful advice. Thank you. And I said you can obviously work with Tricia directly as well. We'll put her details in the notes. But thank you for joining me today. I know that this is definitely something that will help not only our clients but anyone listening and hopefully maybe getting that courage for the next step to see what that looks like and start thinking about maybe a way out. But I thank you for your time today. You're entirely welcome. And thanks for having me on your show, Stacey. It's lovely to see you again. You're welcome. Thank you.
